“In commemoration of the 400th anniversary of the Arminian Remonstrance Andrews University presents:”

Arminianism and Adventism: Celebrating Our Soteriological Heritage

October 14-17, AU, Sponsored by AU, ATS, BRI, AU Press, AUSS, R&H;Pub.

Speakers: Roger Olson, Barry Calien, George Knight, Hans LaRondelle, Woodrow Whidden, Denis Fortin, and others.

Welcome Doug to 4TG!
Thanks for alerting us to this conference.

Yes Arminianism is the heritage of Adventism as well as most of American Christianity. I wish more former SDAs realized this.

The spirit of Charles Finney lives on in American evangelicalism.

A recent example of this was the Harvest crusade at Anaheim stadium. Greg Laurie is a good Christian brother, but it was just too scripted. The rock music which was deafening set the tone for the rockers. As soon as the music stopped, many of them got up to leave before Laurie could give his sermon.

Then when the altar call was given, there was more rock music while the throngs came forward on cue.

I am sure some people are saved in spite of these techniques. But the Arminian tone could not be missed.

Stan

Thanks for the welcome, Stan!  Do you remember me from the RS Forum?

It is interesting to note that you see a connection between Arminianism and styles of music.  Never thought of that.

I am thinking about going to the conference.

Doug

Stan Ermshar - 13 August 2010 10:45 PM

A recent example of this was the Harvest crusade at Anaheim stadium. Greg Laurie is a good Christian brother, but it was just too scripted. The rock music which was deafening set the tone for the rockers. As soon as the music stopped, many of them got up to leave before Laurie could give his sermon.

Then when the altar call was given, there was more rock music while the throngs came forward on cue.

I am sure some people are saved in spite of these techniques. But the Arminian tone could not be missed.

Stan

Stan, I have to smile at your comments because they sound so similar to what the agnostic British reporters were saying fifty years ago about the Billy Graham Crusade, only back then it was “Just As I Am.” Please watch this video clip about it, from a Gaither Homecoming video where Cliff Barrows recounts the story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6-OH0SyQTU

Of course the throngs “come forward on cue"--they have just had the Gospel preached to them which is “the power of God unto salvation” (Romans 1:16)--the “cue” is the Holy Spirit drawing them to Jesus Christ! Do you not believe that the Gospel has power, that the Spirit converts people through the Word? Come on, Stan, I thought you were a Calvinist!

Jeremy

Hi Jeremy, Hi from your aunt and uncle.  I had a nice visit with them after Sabbath School today.  When I first came here I took a class in Canadian History from him, which I very much enjoyed.

What kind of music do Calvinists like?

Doug

Thanks, Doug! So now I know who you are. Welcome to 4TG, by the way. I noticed on another thread you mentioned that you have lurked here for a long time.

Jeremy

[

Doug - 14 August 2010 12:46 PM

Thanks for the welcome, Stan!  Do you remember me from the RS Forum?

It is interesting to note that you see a connection between Arminianism and styles of music.  Never thought of that.

I am thinking about going to the conference.

Doug

Yes Doug. A warm welcome to you. You will be free on here to post in freedom without getting banned.

Stan

JeremyG - 14 August 2010 01:16 PM

Stan Ermshar - 13 August 2010 10:45 PM

A recent example of this was the Harvest crusade at Anaheim stadium. Greg Laurie is a good Christian brother, but it was just too scripted. The rock music which was deafening set the tone for the rockers. As soon as the music stopped, many of them got up to leave before Laurie could give his sermon.

Then when the altar call was given, there was more rock music while the throngs came forward on cue.

I am sure some people are saved in spite of these techniques. But the Arminian tone could not be missed.

Stan

Stan, I have to smile at your comments because they sound so similar to what the agnostic British reporters were saying fifty years ago about the Billy Graham Crusade, only back then it was “Just As I Am.” Please watch this video clip about it, from a Gaither Homecoming video where Cliff Barrows recounts the story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6-OH0SyQTU

Of course the throngs “come forward on cue"--they have just had the Gospel preached to them which is “the power of God unto salvation” (Romans 1:16)--the “cue” is the Holy Spirit drawing them to Jesus Christ! Do you not believe that the Gospel has power, that the Spirit converts people through the Word? Come on, Stan, I thought you were a Calvinist!

Jeremy

Thanks Jeremy for your reply. I want to clarify my comments I made on the Harvest later today,

Stan

I ordinarily would not go to Anaheim Stadium to a harvest crusade, but an opportunity came along to take someone who may not be saved, and that person wanted to see what a Harvest Crusade was like. Also, the theme of the night was on suffering and we wanted to bring a good word home for my wife who is disabled.

James Dobson was a featured guest as well as the music groups “Mercy Me” and Stephen Curtis Chapman. I understand that these are considered middle of the road CCM performers and I have enjoyed some of their songs.

There was a huge crowd last Sunday night with standing room only and they had to turn away 1000 people from the gate.

The stage was set up with a massive scaffold of speakers and shielding, so that we who were sitting in right field could only see a large wall of speakers, and had to look at the performers on the large stadium screen.

I wish I would have brought ear plugs. The music was deafening, just like a professionally produced rock concert. This reminded me of my concert going days when I heard a lot of rock bands. You could not possibly hear the words, but the words were flashed up on a screen.

They took a break from the loud music so that Greg Laurie could interview James Dobson. It was a great interview. I developed a new respect for Dobson, as he was so gospel centered. The theme of the night was “Why bad things happen to good people”, and of course Laurie spoke about the terrible tragedy of losing his son in a car accident which was the result of his son driving recklessly in the carpool lane when he was driving alone (he had previously been cited for this). Chapman also spoke about losing his daughter in an accident.

James Dobson ended his segment with a statement about his favorite hymn which is “It is well with my soul”. Oh, how I longed to hear that song sung by one of the performers, but, no, we were treated with another long set of loud rock music. Even though these groups are considered middle of the road, somehow that night they were into showing off the percussion and guitar riffs.

Finally the music stopped, and then people started milling around in the stands and texting on their cell phones and distracting from the message that Greg Laurie was giving making it difficult for my guest to really concentrate on the message
Many got up and left, as they clearly came for the music and were gone.

The message was fairly good. Greg Laurie’s final conclusion as to why bad things happen to good people, was “I don’t know”
Then there was a call to come forward to accept Christ. Laurie made it sound like that one’s salvation was hanging in the balance that very night, and their decision was needed. (I am not sure where decisional regeneration is taught in the Bible}
So, instead of “Just as I am” during the Billy Graham days, there was a return to the rock rhythms with some good songs like I’m Forgiven, and others, but somehow the reverent atmosphere was missing.

My guest did like the message, but was not happy with the loud music. Even while going out into the parking lot along ways away, you could still hear the loud music which was supposed to be the altar call music.

I remember going to the Harvest Crusade in the early 90’s and at that time you could at least see the stage, and the music was not near as loud.

I remember going to a Billy Graham crusade in the same stadium in 1985., and in those days they had a contemporary segment, but they also had the great George Beverly Shea singing traditional hymns for the older generation. There was a much more reverent atmosphere, and we would leave the stadium very inspired.

Again, I don’t doubt that people are saved in these rock music based events, but is it really necessary to go to the farthest limit to imitate a secular rock concert?

And, as I have said before, I love good secular rock music, but it somehow doesn’t produce an atmosphere of worship as evidenced out in right field of the Angels ballpark.

It was Charles Finney who invented the altar calls of Graham and Laurie, and is an American tradition. I just don’t see where these types of things are Biblical.

Stan

Stan Ermshar - 15 August 2010 07:25 PM

I ordinarily would not go to Anaheim Stadium to a harvest crusade, but an opportunity came along to take someone who may not be saved, and that person wanted to see what a Harvest Crusade was like. Also, the theme of the night was on suffering and we wanted to bring a good word home for my wife who is disabled.

James Dobson was a featured guest as well as the music groups “Mercy Me” and Stephen Curtis Chapman. I understand that these are considered middle of the road CCM performers and I have enjoyed some of their songs.

There was a huge crowd last Sunday night with standing room only and they had to turn away 1000 people from the gate.

The stage was set up with a massive scaffold of speakers and shielding, so that we who were sitting in right field could only see a large wall of speakers, and had to look at the performers on the large stadium screen.

I wish I would have brought ear plugs. The music was deafening, just like a professionally produced rock concert. This reminded me of my concert going days when I heard a lot of rock bands. You could not possibly hear the words, but the words were flashed up on a screen.

They took a break from the loud music so that Greg Laurie could interview James Dobson. It was a great interview. I developed a new respect for Dobson, as he was so gospel centered. The theme of the night was “Why bad things happen to good people”, and of course Laurie spoke about the terrible tragedy of losing his son in a car accident which was the result of his son driving recklessly in the carpool lane when he was driving alone (he had previously been cited for this). Chapman also spoke about losing his daughter in an accident.

James Dobson ended his segment with a statement about his favorite hymn which is “It is well with my soul”. Oh, how I longed to hear that song sung by one of the performers, but, no, we were treated with another long set of loud rock music. Even though these groups are considered middle of the road, somehow that night they were into showing off the percussion and guitar riffs.

Finally the music stopped, and then people started milling around in the stands and texting on their cell phones and distracting from the message that Greg Laurie was giving making it difficult for my guest to really concentrate on the message
Many got up and left, as they clearly came for the music and were gone.

The message was fairly good. Greg Laurie’s final conclusion as to why bad things happen to good people, was “I don’t know”
Then there was a call to come forward to accept Christ. Laurie made it sound like that one’s salvation was hanging in the balance that very night, and their decision was needed. (I am not sure where decisional regeneration is taught in the Bible}
So, instead of “Just as I am” during the Billy Graham days, there was a return to the rock rhythms with some good songs like I’m Forgiven, and others, but somehow the reverent atmosphere was missing.

My guest did like the message, but was not happy with the loud music. Even while going out into the parking lot along ways away, you could still hear the loud music which was supposed to be the altar call music.

I remember going to the Harvest Crusade in the early 90’s and at that time you could at least see the stage, and the music was not near as loud.

I remember going to a Billy Graham crusade in the same stadium in 1985., and in those days they had a contemporary segment, but they also had the great George Beverly Shea singing traditional hymns for the older generation. There was a much more reverent atmosphere, and we would leave the stadium very inspired.

Again, I don’t doubt that people are saved in these rock music based events, but is it really necessary to go to the farthest limit to imitate a secular rock concert?

And, as I have said before, I love good secular rock music, but it somehow doesn’t produce an atmosphere of worship as evidenced out in right field of the Angels ballpark.

It was Charles Finney who invented the altar calls of Graham and Laurie, and is an American tradition. I just don’t see where these types of things are Biblical.

Stan

Stan,

Just because you had a negative experience and didn’t find it to be a reverent/worshipful atmosphere, doesn’t mean that everyone else had the same experience. It seems to me to be more of an issue of personal taste, and not a matter of right or wrong.

Stan Ermshar - 15 August 2010 07:25 PM

Then there was a call to come forward to accept Christ. Laurie made it sound like that one’s salvation was hanging in the balance that very night, and their decision was needed. (I am not sure where decisional regeneration is taught in the Bible}

What did you want him to say, Stan? Shouldn’t he make it sound like one’s salvation is hanging in the balance that night? Who knows how long anyone has to live? Would you rather he did what Dwight L. Moody did on the night of the Great Chicago Fire, and tell everyone to think it over and make a decision another time, and have them die in the meantime?

Stan, you know that I totally believe in God’s sovereignty in salvation, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not an evangelist’s job to tell people that “Today” is the day of salvation and call on them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation right then and there. God’s sovereign grace does not do away with man’s responsibility to trust in Christ alone for salvation. You are starting to convince me that Arminians are needed in this world, if for nothing else than being effective evangelists.

Here is the story of Moody and why he never closed another meeting without an altar call:

But there is another story that transpired on October 8th, 1871 that has much bearing on the course of American Evangelicalism. The same day the fire raged throughout Chicago, the city’s most popular evangelist was preaching his heart out at Farwell Hall. D.L. Moody had established quite a following in the Chicago area, and on that infamous night he was preaching to a large congregation. Moody dismissed the crowd and asked them to evaluate their relationship with Christ and return next week to make a decision for him. The crowd never returned, though, because the city was destroyed. After the incident, Moody made a personal commitment to never again leave a church congregation without calling them to make a decision for Jesus Christ.

http://www.harvestarthur.org/blog/pastors-blog/dl-moodys-call-to-preach-it/

Jeremy

Jeremy wrote:
Stan,

Just because you had a negative experience and didn’t find it to be a reverent/worshipful atmosphere, doesn’t mean that everyone else had the same experience. It seems to me to be more of an issue of personal taste, and not a matter of right or wrong.
------------------

I have already said that I like secular rock music, so it is not a matter of taste, but what is considered worshipful. There is no question that certain types of music elicit certain physiologic reactions. Rock music puts me into a party mood, and there is nothing wrong with that. The kids were in a partying mood alright in that stadium

I think when the amplifiers and speakers have to block the audience from seeing the preacher, then something is wrong. Why does the music and the rock beat have to be so loud?

Jeremy,

Do you think it is because Dwight Moody did not give an altar call the night of the Chicago fire, that people were lost eternally? Does a soul’s salvation depend on the preacher giving an invitation?

Greg Laurie made it sound like that salvation was all about our decision and performing the work of coming down the aisles past crowds to get to the field. That does not give evidence of true salvation.

The Reformed view of evangelism is just different from the Arminian view.

Read what John MacArthur has to say about altar calls:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/ALTAR.HTM

Also read what Michael Horton says of the legacy of Charles Finney, the inventor of the altar calls.

http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar81.htm

Finney was a heretic and a denier of the vital truths of the Christian faith and lived at the same time as EGW and any objective person would say that EGW was more orthodox than Charles Finney. Horton makes the evidence clear.

Yet Charles Finney is a hero of evangelists such as Billy Graham.  Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel also spoke very positively of Finney and sells his books in the Calvary store.

Those who have done follow-up studies on these big evangelistic events at stadiums find that the percentage of truly genuine conversions are quite small.

It is clear that people are manipulated by the excitement of the atmosphere as MacArthur says.

However, I praise God for those who are truly saved at these events.

I still would recommend that parents take their unsaved teenagers to the Harvest Crusade, but I would have second thoughts about recommending that more mature people who are already skeptical of Christianity be taken to these events, as their reason for skepticism might increase.

We still must remember that God is sovereign in all of this.

Stan

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

Jeremy wrote:
Stan,

Just because you had a negative experience and didn’t find it to be a reverent/worshipful atmosphere, doesn’t mean that everyone else had the same experience. It seems to me to be more of an issue of personal taste, and not a matter of right or wrong.
------------------

I have already said that I like secular rock music, so it is not a matter of taste, but what is considered worshipful. There is no question that certain types of music elicit certain physiologic reactions. Rock music puts me into a party mood, and there is nothing wrong with that. The kids were in a partying mood alright in that stadium

I think when the amplifiers and speakers have to block the audience from seeing the preacher, then something is wrong. Why does the music and the rock beat have to be so loud?

Stan,

I know you like secular rock, I meant personal taste as far as worship music. You may not consider it to be worshipful, but others might. In fact, I do find Mercy Me and Steven Curtis Chapman to be very worshipful. And I don’t really understand why you are calling the Praise & Worship genre “rock music.” (Not that I think rock music can’t be worshipful.) Mercy Me and Steven Curtis Chapman songs don’t seem to be a “party mood” to me, but usually simple praise and worship.

But again, who says that a “party mood” can’t be worshipful? Look at King David dancing before the Lord.

It may have been too loud but that has nothing to do with the style of music.

Just so we can know where we are both coming from, I know that both you and I are familiar with the praise and worship music that they have at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Would you call that “rock music” or say that it is not worshipful? In fact, I find the even more contemporary-sounding music at Pastor Mark Martin’s church in Phoenix to be very worshipful.

I had some Mercy Me youtube videos playing in the background as I was writing this post, and had to stop typing because it was so worshipful.

OK, I just found Mercy Me at Harvest 2010 in Anaheim. Is this what you’re talking about, Stan?? It looks like 50,000 people worshiping God, to me! Beautiful! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHwmyfHhUqU Wow, this is great! It seems like a very worshipful atmosphere to me. Worship doesn’t get any better than this! I would have loved to have been there! (Perhaps the volume was a bit too loud, but other than that...) And I can hear the words just fine, from this camera in the stands.

As for the “wall,” there was a similar setup at Billy Graham crusades (in the last couple of decades, at least).

I looked at a few more videos from the Anaheim crusade August 8, and it sounds like a few of the songs could be called “rock music” (but again that doesn’t mean it can’t be worshipful). But one of the “altar call” songs was Chris Tomlin’s “Amazing Love”! Some of these are standard praise and worship songs that you would hear in most churches. And it looked like people were coming forward before there was even any music playing, while Greg Laurie was still speaking.

By the way, one of the youtube videos from the Anaheim crusade said:

“Created on August 8, 2010 One of the greatest nights of worship!!! Katinas, Mercy Me and Steven Curtis Chapman!! They were all amazing!!”

Like I said, different people, different experiences. Haha.

I’ll respond to the other part of your post later (regarding the altar calls, etc.).

Jeremy

Jeremy,
You would have to be where we sat to understand the noise level.

I agree that the groups in question are generally not considered hard rock, but in that environment, it sure reminded me of the types of concerts I used to enjoy and still enjoy in a secular setting.

I attended Calvary Chapel off and on for a 20 year time period. Believe it or not Jeremy, I am a regular listener to KWVE, the flagship station. On weekends they play great P and W music. They stay the away from the really stronger rock rhythms.

I am not opposed to soft rock in worship. I probably would not like Mark Martin’s music. He has been more liberal towards the Seeker sensitive movement, and so has Greg Laurie. These men have not followed Chuck Smith’s lead in banning Rick Warren’s books from their bookstores. (I don’t like the idea of book banning either), but there are big problems with seeker sensitive Christianity.

Charles Spurgeon was a great champion in his day about his concerns of the church imitating the world. He was convinced that a lot of churches were “amusing goats instead of feeding sheep”

See this sermon from Spurgeon:

http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/Church/Spurgeon.htm

The bottom line to this discussion is that I praise God for those who were genuinely saved during the 3 nights of the Harvest.

God in His sovereignty has a way of working through all of this, and will work it out for his good pleasure.

I don’t think it hurts to raise questions about evangelistic methods. I still think altar calls are unbiblical and can be dangerous.

Stan

Hi Stan, am enjoying your experiences at the Big A.  Have been there for baseball and football, but have not attended an evangelistic event there. 

How do you think evangelists should manage the process of people coming to Christ?  Some, for example, have used decision cards instead of altar calls.  Is it OK to get the name, etc., of the person who is receiving Christ for the first time?

What do you mean when you say the altar call is unbiblical?  Do you mean it contradicts specific biblical principles?  Or do you mean that it is not specifically mentioned in the Bible?

George Whitefield is a good example of a successful Calvinist evangelist.  As far as I can tell, he did not use the altar call approach, but he won hundreds of thousands to Christ.

Jesus said, “I will make you fishers of men.” We need a variety of methods to help us to catch the different kinds of fish that are out there in the ocean.

A recent study done in England of 511 new converts found that for most people “belonging comes before believing.” People in today’s world need to see what it is like to belong to a loving community of Christians--before they can believe in Christ as their Savior from sin.  Make sense?

Stan,

I’ve now watched the entire evening of the Harvest crusade from Sunday, August 8, 2010 online. Anyone else who wants to watch it and come to your own conclusions can do so at: http://www.harvest.org/crusades/2010/southern-california/webcast/sunday.html

After watching the entire thing, I found nothing really wrong with it, Stan. My impression was much different than yours. It was much better than I expected.

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

Jeremy,

Do you think it is because Dwight Moody did not give an altar call the night of the Chicago fire, that people were lost eternally? Does a soul’s salvation depend on the preacher giving an invitation?

Stan, you know that I believe that salvation depends on God alone and that all of His elect will be saved. But he uses humans, including those whom He gifts as evangelists, to call people to trust in Jesus.

I am talking about from our side, from our perspective, and what is our responsibility in evangelizing. Like I said above, it is an evangelist’s job to tell people that “Today” is the day of salvation and call on them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation right then and there. I certainly don’t understand why you would think this is wrong.

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

Greg Laurie made it sound like that salvation was all about our decision and performing the work of coming down the aisles past crowds to get to the field. That does not give evidence of true salvation.

I did not get that impression. What he said sounded pretty Biblical to me and he quoted Jesus’ own words. You know that Laurie does not believe that salvation depends on someone walking down an aisle, and I don’t think that was what he was trying to get across.

If he had told them to stay in their seats, wouldn’t that create more “false converts” than if only those who had the humility to walk down to the field were included? It seems more likely to be the Holy Spirit working in them if they are willing to come down to the field.

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

The Reformed view of evangelism is just different from the Arminian view.

Read what John MacArthur has to say about altar calls:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/ALTAR.HTM

MacArthur has his own problems when it comes to salvation and the Gospel, as has been documented on this forum previously.

Laurie was not using human manipulation or excitement--he was just preaching the Gospel.

As far as saying you shouldn’t try to “persuade,” MacArthur is just plain wrong. The New Testament talks about the Apostle Paul using persuasion multiple times. Here is just one example:

“And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.” (Acts 19:8 NASB.)

And another example: “And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.” (Acts 18:4 NASB.)

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

Also read what Michael Horton says of the legacy of Charles Finney, the inventor of the altar calls.

http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar81.htm


Finney was a heretic and a denier of the vital truths of the Christian faith and lived at the same time as EGW and any objective person would say that EGW was more orthodox than Charles Finney. Horton makes the evidence clear.

Yet Charles Finney is a hero of evangelists such as Billy Graham.  Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel also spoke very positively of Finney and sells his books in the Calvary store.

I agree that Finney was a heretic, Stan. But I don’t see how anyone could possibly claim that EGW was more orthodox than Finney! I think you’re forgetting all of the horrific teachings that she promulgated.

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

Those who have done follow-up studies on these big evangelistic events at stadiums find that the percentage of truly genuine conversions are quite small.

It is clear that people are manipulated by the excitement of the atmosphere as MacArthur says.

However, I praise God for those who are truly saved at these events.

I still would recommend that parents take their unsaved teenagers to the Harvest Crusade,

Why? So they can become “false converts” and not have “true salvation”?

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

but I would have second thoughts about recommending that more mature people who are already skeptical of Christianity be taken to these events, as their reason for skepticism might increase.

Why should their reason for skepticism increase? I don’t get what you’re saying here.

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

We still must remember that God is sovereign in all of this.

Stan

Absolutely!

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 11:03 PM

Jeremy,
You would have to be where we sat to understand the noise level.

I agree that the groups in question are generally not considered hard rock, but in that environment, it sure reminded me of the types of concerts I used to enjoy and still enjoy in a secular setting.

I attended Calvary Chapel off and on for a 20 year time period. Believe it or not Jeremy, I am a regular listener to KWVE, the flagship station. On weekends they play great P and W music. They stay the away from the really stronger rock rhythms.

I am not opposed to soft rock in worship. I probably would not like Mark Martin’s music. He has been more liberal towards the Seeker sensitive movement, and so has Greg Laurie. These men have not followed Chuck Smith’s lead in banning Rick Warren’s books from their bookstores. (I don’t like the idea of book banning either), but there are big problems with seeker sensitive Christianity.

Charles Spurgeon was a great champion in his day about his concerns of the church imitating the world. He was convinced that a lot of churches were “amusing goats instead of feeding sheep”

See this sermon from Spurgeon:

http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/Church/Spurgeon.htm

I don’t see how any of that Harvest crusade could be considered “amusing the goats.”

But Stan, didn’t you hear Greg Laurie’s story about the “backslidden Muslim” guy named Earl? The man’s soul was saved through “amusing the goats”!! He was driving to his drug dealer to pick up his lethal dose so he could commit suicide, when he decided that he wanted to find some “dark” music on the radio to get him in the mood for what he was about to do. But he came across a Christian station that was playing a song that he “liked the sound of” (I would say he was an amused goat! ), and the DJ came on and said that if you liked that band that they would be performing at “The Pit” (where the Harvest crusade was). Right then, he noticed that “The Pit” was the next turn, so he went there and was saved that very day!

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 11:03 PM

The bottom line to this discussion is that I praise God for those who were genuinely saved during the 3 nights of the Harvest.

God in His sovereignty has a way of working through all of this, and will work it out for his good pleasure.

I don’t think it hurts to raise questions about evangelistic methods. I still think altar calls are unbiblical and can be dangerous.

Stan

I don’t think it hurts to raise questions about evangelistic methods, either. I just don’t see what’s wrong with the Harvest crusade, even after watching the entire thing.

And how can you possibly say that altar calls are “dangerous” if you told me that we can’t say that what Moody did the night of the fire was “dangerous,” because God is sovereign? You can’t have it both ways, Stan! If God is sovereign, then how can altar calls be “dangerous”?

You asked me: “Does a soul’s salvation depend on the preacher giving an invitation?” But based on what you wrote above about altar calls being dangerous, I can ask you: “Does a soul’s salvation depend on the preacher not giving an invitation/altar call?”

Jeremy