“That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved” (Rom 10:9-10).

Two things: the heart and the mouth.  The mouth communicates to others what is in the heart.  Perhaps the feet (getting up and coming down to the altar) can also communicate the belief that Jesus has risen..  Paul says that we believe and are justified with our hearts, but that we confess and are saved with our mouths.

“Mouth” stands for open communication of what is in the heart to other people and to God.  For some, their “mouth” is an internet forum.  For others it is a small group testimony period.  For others it may be getting up out of their seats and coming down to the front.  Another way is to simply help people that are in need.  Our hands communicate by what they do.  There are many, many ways to communicate our heart’s belief.

Jeremy, you make some excellent points.  Paul certainly used persuasion.

But if we want to bring Muslims and Jews to Christ, we need to stop calling our evangelistic meetings “crusades.” Crusades bring to mind “Christians” going to the Middle East and slaying men, women, and children with the sword.  I hope that many Westerners are also offended by that term.

“For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.  How then can they call on the one they have not believed in?  And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?  And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?  And how can they preach unless they are sent?  As it is written, ‘How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!’” (Rom 10:13-15).

I see two subjects under discussion: The modern marketing method of selling Jesus and the Finney call to the “anxious bench”.
For my opinion on the first I’ll post the last three paragraphs from an article found in the WALL STREET JOURNAL:

“And the further irony,” he adds, “is that the younger generations who are less impressed by whiz-bang technology, who often see through what is slick and glitzy, and who have been on the receiving end of enough marketing to nauseate them, are as likely to walk away from these oh-so-relevant churches as to walk into them.”

“If the evangelical Christian leadership thinks that “cool Christianity” is a sustainable path forward, they are severely mistaken. As a twenty something, I can say with confidence that when it comes to church, we don’t want cool as much as we want real.”

“If we are interested in Christianity in any sort of serious way, it is not because it’s easy or trendy or popular. It’s because Jesus himself is appealing, and what he says rings true. It’s because the world we inhabit is utterly phony, ephemeral, narcissistic, image-obsessed and sex-drenched—and we want an alternative. It’s not because we want more of the same.”

Mr. McCracken’s book, “Hipster Christianity: Where Church and Cool Collide” (Baker Books) was published this month.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111704575355311122648100.html

The altar call today come across as a hyped up televised media event photo-op, a marketing tool to sell the next Rock music entertainment ‘crusade’ for Christ.

Now, having said that, is the altar call a definitive example of the free will ‘I choose to be saved’ or is it required in order for predestined election to be efficacious?

John Douglas

As a substitute for authentic, “cool” doesn’t work.  But is it possible to be both “cool” and authentic?

Or. . .

Must we be old-fashioned to be real?

Doug - 18 August 2010 08:00 AM

As a substitute for authentic, “cool” doesn’t work.  But is it possible to be both “cool” and authentic?

Or. . .

Must we be old-fashioned to be real?

Hi Doug and welcome to 4TG… (This is a bit rushed so I apologize for its crudeness.)

If it is the desire of an absolutely sovereign God, to (by the Spirit) soften a hard heart, lead one to a true faith, and then support a lifelong process of sanctification (become more like Christ), how does any earthly thing resist? Being old fashioned, or uncool, or seeker insensitive is not going to thwart the Holy Spirit’s mission. However, we are commanded to be winsome and loving to those who we evangelize or greet anew at the door of our church.  We are to faithfully and accurately present the Word and then GET OUT OF THE WAY! 

We, as the Body of Christ (believers) are charged with keeping error out of our scriptural interpretations. We are sinful creatures. The Apostle Paul tells us to continually follow the counsel of and fully contend for God’s Word.

I don’t know if this helps you in anyway but here it is… The authenticity of a church is measured by its faithfulness to the Gospel. Its “coolness” is irrelevant!

JeremyG - 17 August 2010 08:14 PM

Stan,

I’ve now watched the entire evening of the Harvest crusade from Sunday, August 8, 2010 online. Anyone else who wants to watch it and come to your own conclusions can do so at: http://www.harvest.org/crusades/2010/southern-california/webcast/sunday.html

After watching the entire thing, I found nothing really wrong with it, Stan. My impression was much different than yours. It was much better than I expected.

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

Jeremy,

Do you think it is because Dwight Moody did not give an altar call the night of the Chicago fire, that people were lost eternally? Does a soul’s salvation depend on the preacher giving an invitation?

Stan, you know that I believe that salvation depends on God alone and that all of His elect will be saved. But he uses humans, including those whom He gifts as evangelists, to call people to trust in Jesus.

I am talking about from our side, from our perspective, and what is our responsibility in evangelizing. Like I said above, it is an evangelist’s job to tell people that “Today” is the day of salvation and call on them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation right then and there. I certainly don’t understand why you would think this is wrong.

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

Greg Laurie made it sound like that salvation was all about our decision and performing the work of coming down the aisles past crowds to get to the field. That does not give evidence of true salvation.

I did not get that impression. What he said sounded pretty Biblical to me and he quoted Jesus’ own words. You know that Laurie does not believe that salvation depends on someone walking down an aisle, and I don’t think that was what he was trying to get across.

If he had told them to stay in their seats, wouldn’t that create more “false converts” than if only those who had the humility to walk down to the field were included? It seems more likely to be the Holy Spirit working in them if they are willing to come down to the field.

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

The Reformed view of evangelism is just different from the Arminian view.

Read what John MacArthur has to say about altar calls:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/ALTAR.HTM

MacArthur has his own problems when it comes to salvation and the Gospel, as has been documented on this forum previously.

Laurie was not using human manipulation or excitement--he was just preaching the Gospel.

As far as saying you shouldn’t try to “persuade,” MacArthur is just plain wrong. The New Testament talks about the Apostle Paul using persuasion multiple times. Here is just one example:

“And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.” (Acts 19:8 NASB.)

And another example: “And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.” (Acts 18:4 NASB.)

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

Also read what Michael Horton says of the legacy of Charles Finney, the inventor of the altar calls.

http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar81.htm


Finney was a heretic and a denier of the vital truths of the Christian faith and lived at the same time as EGW and any objective person would say that EGW was more orthodox than Charles Finney. Horton makes the evidence clear.

Yet Charles Finney is a hero of evangelists such as Billy Graham.  Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel also spoke very positively of Finney and sells his books in the Calvary store.

I agree that Finney was a heretic, Stan. But I don’t see how anyone could possibly claim that EGW was more orthodox than Finney! I think you’re forgetting all of the horrific teachings that she promulgated.

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

Those who have done follow-up studies on these big evangelistic events at stadiums find that the percentage of truly genuine conversions are quite small.

It is clear that people are manipulated by the excitement of the atmosphere as MacArthur says.

However, I praise God for those who are truly saved at these events.

I still would recommend that parents take their unsaved teenagers to the Harvest Crusade,

Why? So they can become “false converts” and not have “true salvation”?

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

but I would have second thoughts about recommending that more mature people who are already skeptical of Christianity be taken to these events, as their reason for skepticism might increase.

Why should their reason for skepticism increase? I don’t get what you’re saying here.

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 07:43 AM

We still must remember that God is sovereign in all of this.

Stan

Absolutely!

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 11:03 PM

Jeremy,
You would have to be where we sat to understand the noise level.

I agree that the groups in question are generally not considered hard rock, but in that environment, it sure reminded me of the types of concerts I used to enjoy and still enjoy in a secular setting.

I attended Calvary Chapel off and on for a 20 year time period. Believe it or not Jeremy, I am a regular listener to KWVE, the flagship station. On weekends they play great P and W music. They stay the away from the really stronger rock rhythms.

I am not opposed to soft rock in worship. I probably would not like Mark Martin’s music. He has been more liberal towards the Seeker sensitive movement, and so has Greg Laurie. These men have not followed Chuck Smith’s lead in banning Rick Warren’s books from their bookstores. (I don’t like the idea of book banning either), but there are big problems with seeker sensitive Christianity.

Charles Spurgeon was a great champion in his day about his concerns of the church imitating the world. He was convinced that a lot of churches were “amusing goats instead of feeding sheep”

See this sermon from Spurgeon:

http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/Church/Spurgeon.htm

I don’t see how any of that Harvest crusade could be considered “amusing the goats.”

But Stan, didn’t you hear Greg Laurie’s story about the “backslidden Muslim” guy named Earl? The man’s soul was saved through “amusing the goats”!! He was driving to his drug dealer to pick up his lethal dose so he could commit suicide, when he decided that he wanted to find some “dark” music on the radio to get him in the mood for what he was about to do. But he came across a Christian station that was playing a song that he “liked the sound of” (I would say he was an amused goat! ), and the DJ came on and said that if you liked that band that they would be performing at “The Pit” (where the Harvest crusade was). Right then, he noticed that “The Pit” was the next turn, so he went there and was saved that very day!

Stan Ermshar - 16 August 2010 11:03 PM

The bottom line to this discussion is that I praise God for those who were genuinely saved during the 3 nights of the Harvest.

God in His sovereignty has a way of working through all of this, and will work it out for his good pleasure.

I don’t think it hurts to raise questions about evangelistic methods. I still think altar calls are unbiblical and can be dangerous.

Stan

I don’t think it hurts to raise questions about evangelistic methods, either. I just don’t see what’s wrong with the Harvest crusade, even after watching the entire thing.

And how can you possibly say that altar calls are “dangerous” if you told me that we can’t say that what Moody did the night of the fire was “dangerous,” because God is sovereign? You can’t have it both ways, Stan! If God is sovereign, then how can altar calls be “dangerous”?

You asked me: “Does a soul’s salvation depend on the preacher giving an invitation?” But based on what you wrote above about altar calls being dangerous, I can ask you: “Does a soul’s salvation depend on the preacher not giving an invitation/altar call?”

Jeremy

Jeremy,
I also just watched several parts of the web cast that you linked above. You do get a different impression watching on the web cam than being exposed to the ear splitting noise that we heard out in right field. You can hear the words and watch the performers much better. They did not catch the distractions of people talking and texting on cell phones and leaving after the music stopped.

If you fast forward the tape and go to the Steven Curtis Chapman song between 60 and 67 minutes into the tape, you will understand what I mean about some hard rock. Also, look at the faces of the crowd. I am not sure they were really worshipping God during that riff, but may have been worshipping the performers more.

Every time Greg Laurie would make a point from the Bible, you hear a lot of cheering and yelling, and I don’t see how this is not distracting to those who really need to hear the Word of God proclaimed so that the Holy Spirit can do its job of awakening to salvation?

Also Jeremy, I am not making the point as to right or wrong. I am just saying that older age groups would not respond to the methods that Laurie is using. These events are clearly geared to the youth.

Why were there no hymns sung at the crusade? Is it because people might leave? Dr Dobson at least suggested the singing of a great hymn, and it would have been great, had a group performed that hymn.

Charles Spurgeon only preached the Word and drew huge crowds. He did not use the popular music of his day as bait to get people to come.

Doug,

When I say that these methods are unbilbical, I am not referring to a forbidding of certain methods.

Paul preached with simple words and quoting from MacArthur:

“I noted for you earlier, in 1 Corinthians, chapter 2, Paul shunned manipulative oratory. He didn’t do like many preachers do today. He wasn’t into manipulating his crowd, he says in chapter 2, verse 1, of 1 Corinthians, “I didn’t come with superiority of speech” (that’s oratorical ability), I didn’t come to bowl you over with my oration, I didn’t come with “wisdom.”

He says, verse 4, “My message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom” (I didn’t use technique; I didn’t use manipulation). I didn’t want your faith to “rest on the wisdom of men” (literally, the wisdom of their information or their approach). He said, I came to you with God’s wisdom; I came to you in God’s power; I came to “you in weakness in fear and in trembling.”

He didn’t use techniques that excite and stir, and move people’s emotions to achieve results
------------------------

What I saw that evening were techniques such as loud rock music which if you look at the faces in the crowd, and from what i saw in person (Not just the web cam) were methods that got the emotions rolling in high gear.

Greg Laurie’s message however did use the Bible and his message DID NOT FIT the description above

Having said all this, I believe Greg Laurie has done a lot of good, and somehow many lives are changed despite what my opinion is of the method. Praise God for the lives that were changed. This proves that God can save in any circumstance and confirms His mighty power to seek and to save the lost.

Stan Ermshar - 20 August 2010 11:01 AM

Jeremy,
I also just watched several parts of the web cast that you linked above. You do get a different impression watching on the web cam than being exposed to the ear splitting noise that we heard out in right field. You can hear the words and watch the performers much better. They did not catch the distractions of people talking and texting on cell phones and leaving after the music stopped.

If you fast forward the tape and go to the Steven Curtis Chapman song between 60 and 67 minutes into the tape, you will understand what I mean about some hard rock. Also, look at the faces of the crowd. I am not sure they were really worshipping God during that riff, but may have been worshipping the performers more.

Every time Greg Laurie would make a point from the Bible, you hear a lot of cheering and yelling, and I don’t see how this is not distracting to those who really need to hear the Word of God proclaimed so that the Holy Spirit can do its job of awakening to salvation?

Also Jeremy, I am not making the point as to right or wrong. I am just saying that older age groups would not respond to the methods that Laurie is using. These events are clearly geared to the youth.

Why were there no hymns sung at the crusade? Is it because people might leave? Dr Dobson at least suggested the singing of a great hymn, and it would have been great, had a group performed that hymn.

Charles Spurgeon only preached the Word and drew huge crowds. He did not use the popular music of his day as bait to get people to come.

Stan,

They did sing “How Great Thou Art.” Also, I saw some older people on the field at the end, including an old man (probably 75 or so) who had his arms raised as the worship music played.

You say that Spurgeon “did not use the popular music of his day as bait to get people to come.” Are you saying that he had no music? If you mean the popular secular music of his day, well Greg Laurie does not use that either. If Spurgeon used hymns then he was using the popular Christian music of his day, as Laurie is today.

Jeremy

“If we are interested in Christianity in any sort of serious way, it is not because it’s easy or trendy or popular. It’s because Jesus himself is appealing, and what he says rings true. It’s because the world we inhabit is utterly phony, ephemeral, narcissistic, image-obsessed and sex-drenched—and we want an alternative. It’s not because we want more of the same.”

How profound. Thanks John D for this quote.

We are so anxious to make today’s message so appealing to youth that we nearly use every secular gimmick to make it ‘relevant’, ‘exciting’ and ‘entertaining’ that we never really stop to ask if this is what our youth really want. Perhaps they are tired of the same old, same old that they experience every day of their life. Maybe some kids are put out, embarrassed, and even down trodden by their everyday lifestyles. Now they can associate the Word of God and a Jesus experience with this too?

Much food for thought here.

One thing Bacchiocchi (hated by SDAs and non alike for his views on this subject, and I am far from agreeing with him on this subject) said that has stuck with me is that ‘music in worship should elevate us spiritually not simply stimulate us physically’. How true.

Personally, I side more with Stan on this issue, though not completely. Perhaps when I have had time to look over this thread, I will post a more detailed response.

JeremyG - 21 August 2010 02:58 PM

Stan Ermshar - 20 August 2010 11:01 AM

Jeremy,
I also just watched several parts of the web cast that you linked above. You do get a different impression watching on the web cam than being exposed to the ear splitting noise that we heard out in right field. You can hear the words and watch the performers much better. They did not catch the distractions of people talking and texting on cell phones and leaving after the music stopped.

If you fast forward the tape and go to the Steven Curtis Chapman song between 60 and 67 minutes into the tape, you will understand what I mean about some hard rock. Also, look at the faces of the crowd. I am not sure they were really worshipping God during that riff, but may have been worshipping the performers more.

Every time Greg Laurie would make a point from the Bible, you hear a lot of cheering and yelling, and I don’t see how this is not distracting to those who really need to hear the Word of God proclaimed so that the Holy Spirit can do its job of awakening to salvation?

Also Jeremy, I am not making the point as to right or wrong. I am just saying that older age groups would not respond to the methods that Laurie is using. These events are clearly geared to the youth.

Why were there no hymns sung at the crusade? Is it because people might leave? Dr Dobson at least suggested the singing of a great hymn, and it would have been great, had a group performed that hymn.

Charles Spurgeon only preached the Word and drew huge crowds. He did not use the popular music of his day as bait to get people to come.

Stan,

They did sing “How Great Thou Art.” Also, I saw some older people on the field at the end, including an old man (probably 75 or so) who had his arms raised as the worship music played.

You say that Spurgeon “did not use the popular music of his day as bait to get people to come.” Are you saying that he had no music? If you mean the popular secular music of his day, well Greg Laurie does not use that either. If Spurgeon used hymns then he was using the popular Christian music of his day, as Laurie is today.

Jeremy

Jeremy,

“How Great Thou Art” is my all time favorite hymn. Check out the tape and see how much of that hymn was actually sung Maybe one verse, but I think mostly the chorus.

I recently downloaded from I TUNES the complete collection of Elvis Presley’s sacred collection of 55 songs. There are 2 versions of “How Great....  on there. The first version is a very quiet version done and the second version was a real rousing version done with JD Sumner and the “Stamps” gospel quartet.  Both these versions were done with genuine feeling and reverence.  At the crusade, it sounded like the Katinas were trying to add a cursory hymn so that someone could say that hymns were not left out.

I attended a funeral yesterday of the owner of the old Hotel Laguna in Laguna Beach California, who passed away from cancer. I was really surprised to hear a very traditional funeral and with organ playing only. They had the audience stand to sing 2 great hymns “How Great Thou Art”, and “Just As I Am” They sang all the stanzas to plain organ music. I was in tears just from the hymns alone, but I also knew the Hotelier, and did not know he had become a Christian just a few days before his death, and had requested that these hymns be sung at his funeral in the old Presbyterian church in town which he helped restore with his own money

When I was growing up SDA, most of the time only the first and last stanzas were sung, rarely all stanzas.

But at this funeral, I was amazed. The pastor did not care that most of the attendees were Laguna Beach “types” many of which are very opposed to the gospel. Imagine being so politically incorrect as to make these people listen to all the stanzas of these great gospel hymns sung to organ music alone! And on top of that the pastor preached from John 14 and emphasized that Jesus was the only way to salvation! This took great courage. He could have preached a more generic sermon, but instead he chose to preach the gospel. I met this dear pastor at a wine and cheese reception after the funeral, and congratulated him on his message. He told me he never misses an opportunity like this to be bold about declaring the gospel. What a great surprise.

Guibox makes an excellent point above. What do the kids or more broadly the unchurched or unsaved want to hear when coming to a church service or an evangelistic crusade?

I do know of many people who associate heavy rock rhythms to their drug culture, and are actually longing to hear something different.

Michael Horton actually encountered this a lot when dealing with the issues surrounding the “seeker sensitive” movement. He came across many who told him that the church is really trying to imitate what they already are familiar with. Many expressed disappointment when they visited churches to find the same old drum sets and guitars that are associated with having a great time in the dance hall, but they expect something different when they come to church. The Laguna Beach Presbyterian church (which is in a cultural hotbed of immoral lifestyles) does not compromise with the musical standards to be “culturally relevant”.

The biggest controversy right now on a conservative SDA website is the issue of drums in church. Apparently SDAs in many churches are also imitating the cultural spirit of other churches, and this is causing a big division in Adventism right now.

In fact if you listen to SDA owned or operated radio stations in Loma Linda KSGN, or KARM in Visalia, Calif, and the PUC radio station, you will find mostly contemporary music playing.

In contrast you will find that it is the conservative Baptist churches that put on web sites that play music that soothes and restores the soul.

I am listening to this station in the background right now:  http://www.abidingradio.org

There are several others such as a Baptist school in Northern California http://www.knvbc.com and FBC radio as well as many others who are playing conservative Christian music, but SDA radio stations are not playing traditional music which is quite interesting.

The station in Loma Linda KSGN tries to be culturally relevant by even sounding like a top 40 radio station with all the jingles, disc jockeys and lingo. KSGN was also a sponsor of the Harvest Crusade. While standing in line to get into the stadium, an SDA pastor was in line just ahead of me, and he was very supportive of the crusade. He tried to distance himself from traditional SDA.

Stan

Stan,

And then there are SDAs standing outside the stadium (many of whom would probably say they are supportive of the crusade), who are trying to trap the brand new believers into the SDA cult ("bring them into the ‘fuller’ message of the gospel"). See this news release: http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/6945614611.html

Jeremy

JeremyG - 22 August 2010 12:37 PM

Stan,

And then there are SDAs standing outside the stadium (many of whom would probably say they are supportive of the crusade), who are trying to trap the brand new believers into the SDA cult ("bring them into the ‘fuller’ message of the gospel"). See this news release: http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/6945614611.html

Jeremy

Jeremy,

It is interesting that you mention this. The way I met the SDA pastor standing in front of me was a result of me noticing a group handing out tracts. I made the off the cuff comment that “I bet those folks might be SDAs who are trying to tell folks that they have the mark of the beast if they worship on Sunday”, The man in front of me turned around and introduced himself as the pastor of the Kansas Avenue SDA church in Riverside, California Bron Jacobs at this link:

http://www.kansasave.org/article.php?id=2

He told me that most SDAs don’t believe this. He seemed like a very reasonable guy. I also introduced myself and told him about my web blogging. He was very cordial and seemed receptive and friendly. I plan to email him to get his reaction to the Sunday night service.

Just a coincidence? or was this encounter also in God’s sovereign will?

Stan

Stan Ermshar - 22 August 2010 10:33 PM

Jeremy,

It is interesting that you mention this. The way I met the SDA pastor standing in front of me was a result of me noticing a group handing out tracts. I made the off the cuff comment that “I bet those folks might be SDAs who are trying to tell folks that they have the mark of the beast if they worship on Sunday”, The man in front of me turned around and introduced himself as the pastor of the Kansas Avenue SDA church in Riverside, California Bron Jacobs at this link:

http://www.kansasave.org/article.php?id=2

He told me that most SDAs don’t believe this. He seemed like a very reasonable guy. I also introduced myself and told him about my web blogging. He was very cordial and seemed receptive and friendly. I plan to email him to get his reaction to the Sunday night service.

Just a coincidence? or was this encounter also in God’s sovereign will?

Stan

Stan, is it possible that he was trying to make a distinction, as many SDAs like to do, between having the “mark of the beast” now as opposed to receiving it later? From his church’s website that you linked to, he certainly believes Sabbath-keeping is necessary in order to be saved, as their statement of beliefs is worded even more strongly than the official SDA “Fundamental Beliefs” statement:

That the law of the Ten Commandments is the standard of righteousness by which all will be judged and which all Christians are commanded to obey. James 2:10-12; Exodus 20:3-17

That the original seventh-day Sabbath has never been changed by divine authority and therefore all Christians are under obligation to keep it holy. Genesis 2:2-3; Luke 23:54-56.

http://www.kansasave.org/article.php?id=8

Jeremy

I have never met an SDA who believes that anybody has the mark of the beast right now.